Curse

Konig Des Todes · Sep 24, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

I don't know about others, but after looking through everything regarding the Rift, Mists, and Realm of the Gods, I found nothing to indicate whether the Realm of the Gods are in the Rift, or in the Mists.

Just a quick overview, the Mists connect every thing to each other, and in the center of the Mists, is the Rift, the center of the universe. In the center of the Rift, is the Hall of Heroes.

We also know that the Underworld and the Realm of Torment are connected. Some believe that the Realm of Torment is a sub-section (of a sub-section) of the Underworld. I disagree. Why? Why would a sub-section of a sub-section of a realm need the word Realm in the name.

We can also assume that the Underworld is connected to the Hall of Heroes, by the order of the HA/Tomb Maps (Underworld->Scarred Earth->Courtyard->Hall of Heroes *HA maps have more*). In the Underworld map in Tombs, you can see in the background the Twin Serpents, or at least one of them.

My hypothesis is based on the general layout of the Rift, Mists, and the Realm of the Gods. I drew a basic idea of what my hypothesis is.

Please note: In my drawing, the shapes and sizes were done as such for simplicity, I am not suggesting those are the size comparisons, or the shapes, just general locations.

In the top drawing, the Realm of Torment and the Underworld would be next to each other, which would be why they are connected. The location of the other Realms of the Gods are uncertain, along with where the Underworld and Realm of Torment is located.

I believe that all the Realms of the Gods are connected to the Hall of Heroes, and all reside in the Rift. The Realm of Torment, being Abaddon's prison, was separated from the rest to prevent as much contamination by him as possible, and to serve even more as his prison.

After all, if they can pull entire buildings into different dimensions, and shift dimensions to their will, what stops them from being able to move/split up dimensions.

Also, my drawing proposes that Tyria is closest to the Underworld. This is only supported by the fact that the way to the Hall of Heroes takes us through a part of the Underworld. So this might not be the case.

In the bottom drawing, I tried to show how it would be to get to the Hall of Heroes, I am not saying that the Hall of Heroes is above the rest, like Mount Olympus is in Greek Mythology, but I wanted to show that the path to the Hall of Heroes is what separates it from the Realms. We only know the path from the Underworld to the Hall of Heroes, we know nothing of the other Realm's paths, and with so little room, I couldn't make six paths.

I also am not trying to say the Realm of Torment is underneath the rest (although that would fit the hell persona), just that it is separate from the rest. And not to mention broken up in of itself.

I am sure I am forgetting something, so sorry if I am. Also, sorry about the poor quality of the drawing (I'm not the best drawer and I have a rather old scanner, so not everything is clear to see).

Free Runner · Sep 24, 2008, 11:15 AM // 11:15

In the few cases where the Underworld and Fissure of Woe are reffered to it always mentions The Mists rather than the Rift. Areas such as the Hall of Heroes are always made certain to be in the Rift. Also since there are no Realms for the other gods its hard to say where they are located as, technically they could be dotted around the Mists.

Oh and its mentioned that Odran placed portals on many different worlds. Its much more likely that the portals in question are the ones that allow you to move through Heroes Ascent. The Underworld being first is due to where Odran placed the first portal - considering the portals dont randomly change it would stay the same all the time meaning it would always be The Underworld. That doesnt give indication as to how close it is to Tyria.

After the Underworld, you can wind up on any world, so you could just say the heroes come across some portals and enter one rather than progressing in a straight line. Of course in Tombs its implied your actually using the portals the Torment Creatures came through.

As with your bit about seeing the Twin Serpents on one of the maps, you actually see them on quite a few maps in different positions so i would put that down to Anets "using the same models" mode rather than them being the actual Twin Serpents. Whole all those areas may look like the Underworld they dont actually have to be. We've yet to see more of the Rifts so there could be other realms or worlds with the same look. So with that you could actually be looping around the Rift before finally getting to the Stuctures surrounding the Hall of Heroes (The most prominent being the Courtyard and The Vault).

Konig Des Todes · Sep 24, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

While I don't discredit your idea of the competitors simply going through multiple portals, I disagree on two accounts.

1. Why would Odran put two portals next to each other (and if the portals are not next to each other, why wouldn't they be called other words? People would have explored the areas).

2. The areas that have the entrances of the Hall of Heroes are obviously not portals (basically, once you reach the Forgotten Shrines and the Golden Gates, there is no chance of portals). And the area of the Forgotten Shrines shows the same texture of the other maps that would be the path to the Hall of Heroes. ANet might get lazy in some cases, but they are not that lazy to make seven different worlds with the same map texture.

If it were not for those two things, I would say that what you say is very plausible.

Also, forgot to mention in the OP:

The reason why the Tombs portal got corrupted would be because at the time of Prophecies/Factions, the Underworld got attacked, and too control of that portal, and followed the fighters all the way to the Hall of Heroes from the Underworld.

The reason why the Heroes' Ascent portal was not taken would be explained in two ways: 1) ANet did get lazy there (when working on Factions as well as the Battle Isles, you wouldn't want to make about 7 new maps for one arena when you can simply use the same maps). Or 2) The Heroes' Ascent portal leads to a different part of the Underworld, one that is not under immediate attack.

Free Runner · Sep 25, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

1. Why would Odran put two portals next to each other (and if the portals are not next to each other, why wouldn't they be called other words? People would have explored the areas).

It said he made the Rift his own "personal gateway". Once he got into the first area (The Underworld) he would of had a safe place. This is going out a bit but when you enter an area you dont know much about, your going to be wary about whats further in. He could of set up multiple portals in the first few worlds for a "safe point". As he progressed he would of got more confident that nothing could touch him (which eventually became his own demise) and started to place single portals to move through the worlds.

Quote:

2. The areas that have the entrances of the Hall of Heroes are obviously not portals (basically, once you reach the Forgotten Shrines and the Golden Gates, there is no chance of portals). And the area of the Forgotten Shrines shows the same texture of the other maps that would be the path to the Hall of Heroes. ANet might get lazy in some cases, but they are not that lazy to make seven different worlds with the same map texture.

Of course i'm not saying every push forward is done through the portals. Eventually you come to the gates of the Hall and obviously begin to move through it. What i am saying is the first few areas dont have to be areas of the Underworld, and could be completely different worlds spread around the Rift (or even the Mists).

When Anet were creating the Tournament i doubt they were taking lore over gameplay so reuse of maps with different things placed in for PvP gameplay reasons isnt exactly out of the question.

Quote:

The reason why the Heroes' Ascent portal was not taken would be explained in two ways: 1) ANet did get lazy there (when working on Factions as well as the Battle Isles, you wouldn't want to make about 7 new maps for one arena when you can simply use the same maps). Or 2) The Heroes' Ascent portal leads to a different part of the Underworld, one that is not under immediate attack.

It just seems like a huge plot hole that Anet couldnt get over. If we took it seriously there would ether be two Halls (One that was affected and one that was "safe" as the Zaishen had put it) or the Hall of Heroes is so big that it has multiple areas that look the same (though the map suggests that the entire "fort" surrounds the altar with it being the centre of the Hall of Heroes). In the end it all comes down to gameplay overtaking lore - with the arrival of Factions a new entrance was needed.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 29, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I just realized that this theory goes hand in hand with my Odran and Abaddon theory.

As I stated, we know the Realm of Torment is stated thanks to the Reaper of the Bone Pits.

But when the Realm of Torment would have been connected to the Underworld, there would have been a more direct route from the Underworld then jumping/falling into the Bone Pits.

Currently, there are three ways into the Rift. Death, through the God's Avatars, and through Odran's portals.

Before Odran, there was not much need to have the Realm of Torment separate from the other realms. If Abaddon was imprisoned, wouldn't it be wiser to have him clearly in sight?

When Odran opened a portal to the Underworld, Abaddon had an easier access to Tyria (via the Underworld), so the gods needed to separate him to prevent him from tainting the world.

If the Underworld and Realm of Torment had a more direct connection before Odran, then that could explain how Dhuum escaped. He fled to the Realm of Torment and could still reside there (just hiding and biding his time).

Another thing that I realized, that helps support my placement of the Realm of Torment, is that now, both the Fissure of Woe and the Underworld are under attack, and Menzies' and Dhuum's forces are found in the Realm of Torment. The Realm of Torment could have served as a "base of operations" for Menzies and Dhuum when they, and Abaddon, attacked the Forgotten/Fissure of Woe/Underworld.

Also, there is a Shrine of the Traitors in the Realm of Torment, specifically the Domain of Pain. This would also support a link to the Fissure of Woe and Menzies. A link to the Fissure of Woe because it was Abaddon, apperently, who corrupted Balthazar's warriors. This could have been done between Abaddon's imprisonment and Odran's opening his portals. Before the Realm of Torment was split from the rest of the realms.

Arghore · Jun 30, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Pre-mention: i realy love these lore theories and i wish i had found these earlier, but better late then never

In my views you place the Hall of Heros in the wrong realm (this ties in with my theory on the Mists, which i will write in the appropriate thread) .. the Hall(s is)/are part of tyria, with this said i here you ask, why do we place it in the mists; This is because there are so many deaths and ressurections going on in these halls (transitions between Tyria and the Mists) that the mist has become a part of the Halls and/or is always present in these halls.

Asto your placement of RoT, to my believes it is a realm near or close to in the Realm of the UW (maybe even part of the UW). It is a realm because it serves a special purpose, in my views keeping bad forces from entering the realm of Tyria, in ways that are currently posible for reaching Tyria from the UW. The Realm of torment could be considdered as being the equivilent of 'Hell', though for some reason i think that those that go there, see it more as the heaven for the bad... Appart from perhaps Abaddon..

Konig Des Todes · Jun 30, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

In my views you place the Hall of Heros in the wrong realm (this ties in with my theory on the Mists, which i will write in the appropriate thread) .. the Hall(s is)/are part of tyria, with this said i here you ask, why do we place it in the mists; This is because there are so many deaths and ressurections going on in these halls (transitions between Tyria and the Mists) that the mist has become a part of the Halls and/or is always present in these halls.

Actually, it is a known fact that the Hall of Heroes is in the center of the Rift which is in the center of the Mists. It is stated in the Prophecies manuscripts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arghore

Asto your placement of RoT, to my believes it is a realm near or close to in the Realm of the UW (maybe even part of the UW). It is a realm because it serves a special purpose, in my views keeping bad forces from entering the realm of Tyria, in ways that are currently posible for reaching Tyria from the UW. The Realm of torment could be considdered as being the equivilent of 'Hell', though for some reason i think that those that go there, see it more as the heaven for the bad... Appart from perhaps Abaddon..

it is questionable if the Realm of Torment is a portion of the Underworld or just simply connected to it. It is known that there is at least a tunnel/portal through the Bone Pits. But if the Realm of Torment is just a section of the Underworld, is unknown. And it is my belief due to the size and gw.dat files (the latter is just the salt on the course - yes, I'm kind of hungry) that they are indeed two seperate realms. If you look at the Realm of Torment maps, you can tell that they are losely able to be connected at certain points - with the Gate of Torment in the center.

And, at least between the Exodus and Nightfall, it is used as a hell and prison. But the prisons and the prisoner's own structures. Which is also why I believe it was once Abaddon's realm. The gw.dat implies that the Realm of Torment becomes Kormir's realm after Nightfall and is renamed the "Redeemed Realm" - though that name could also be a scrapped name from when it was hoped for Abaddon to redeem himself (mentioned in the 3 years of GW PAX video) instead of being killed.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Something I found while looking through the known Underworld:

The strongest support - and in fact what could be the proof - to my theory, has in fact, been under our nose the whole time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper of the Twin Serpent Mountains

Long ago, the god of death was challenged to a duel by two brothers. Grenth was so angered by these two mortals, that instead of simply granting them the sweet peace of death, he turned them into twin serpents and forced them to serve him in the Rift for the rest of eternity. This mountain stands as a reminder to all those who serve Grenth. Be careful that you do not incur such a punishment.

Reaper of the Twin Serpent Moutains

So the Realms of the Gods are, in fact, in the Rift.

However, if they are connected physically could, I suppose, be up to debate.

Unendingfear · Oct 30, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Something I found while looking through the known Underworld:

The strongest support - and in fact what could be the proof - to my theory, has in fact, been under our nose the whole time.

Reaper of the Twin Serpent Moutains

So the Realms of the Gods are, in fact, in the Rift.

However, if they are connected physically could, I suppose, be up to debate.

Good find : o
To be honest though, I doubt they are physicality connected, unless they connect miles and miles away from anywhere we can go. I think the only way to get from one to another is by very power magic.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

If the Realms of the Gods are within the Rift, and the Rift is a singular location, not a series of locations, then there would be a physical connection. For instance, take the Realm of Torment - there are dozens of seemingly separate landmasses, are in fact connected through thin bridges. It is still a physical connection, even though it isn't land to land.

I'll hold to the (more or less) circular belief of the drawing of the first post, and that the Hall of Heroes is in the center. however, I disagree with the order of connections. That is, around the Hall of Heroes (known to the Norn as Hall of Spirits), would be the various realms. These include, but may not be limited to, the Underworld, Fissure of Woe (aka Realm of War), Realm of Torment, Great Forge, Eternal Paradise, and the Sky Above the Sky. Eternal Paradise and the Sky Above the Sky are both possibly the Realm of Dwayna.

My "connection" theory of the realms goes in two possible ways as follow:
??->Fissure of Woe->Underworld->Realm of Torment->??
Fissure of Woe->Realm of Melandru (via Forest of the Wailing Lord)->(into Forgotten Vale)Underworld->Realm of Torment

Reason why I link the Forest of the Wailing Lord as the connection to another realm (whether the first or second) is because, of the whole Fissure of Woe, the Forest of the Wailing Lord sticks out for three reason:

It is the only area not linked with fire or battle.
The Wailing Lord in the Fissure of Woe is one of a kind in that it owns something - while there are numerous Wailing Lords in the Underworld (which warrents a connection there).
The structures were the Wailing Lord is at is unnatural for the area, while such structures is (at least) similar to those found in the Forgotten Vale - unconfirmed for similarity, been a while since I've been to the Forest of the Wailing Lord for me to be sure.

The best connection reasoning would be behind the Ensalved Hero:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miko the Unchained

Now that we are free, we shall seek the judgment of Grenth. May he consider how we suffered here before choosing our fate in the Underworld.

And where does the Enslaved Hero go? The Forest of the Wailing Lord.

And going to bring in things over here from the GWO thread which proves something Free Runner argued against earlier (the path that leads to the Hall of Heroes being an actual path and not a series of different worlds):

Let me show you the path I see:

Here we have the map the Underworld, I don't think it is just a random name, thus it may be related to Grenth's Realm.

Do you see it? The map "The Underworld" and "Fetid World" have overlapping portions.

A path is also seen at the map "Scarred Earth" which is also in Tombs:

If you look around in the map, you can see the tail of a serpentine draconic being which mimics the transformed brothers from the Twin Serpent Mountains in the Underworld. Only the tail is seen here, however, the head (of this or another), is seen in the "Broken Towers" map.

Now, until the Forgotten Shrines, another path is not obvious. However:

You can see at the bottom a path from somewhere. Then at the top you see the entrance to the whole building of the Hall of Heroes.

Past this, I hope I don't have to point out a path, but I will say this: All the following maps are in this building, the center of which would be the Hall of Heroes.

The entrance to the building: Golden Gates
I'd assume the Courtyard map would be on the other side, as a "courtyard" of the place.
Sacred Temple, the Antechamber, The Vault, The Hall of Heroes are in this location as well.

Just to show, the Antechambere, Vault, and Hall of Heroes are also all connect and are in fact in the same map:

Sure, can be argued that "Scarred Earth" "Broken Towers" "Burial Mounds" and "Unholy Temples" may not be connected, but 4 out of 13 maps not connected? All four having the same structure, two having the same kind of snake-dragon thing as the Underworld (realm), and one having a path - far too much of a coincidence.

Along with the path, there is also the fact that the maps before the golden structures house structures that are also found in the Underworld (mainly on the western part of the Labyrinth.

And a little new lore on the Rift from the new PvP Henchmen:

Unendingfear · Oct 30, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Well, as I said up there, they could connect, but I think that you need powerful magic to get from one to another. However, if you are right about them being connected by bridges, it reminds me of a game my best friend and I played when we were younger. We had an area in this game, called the islands; they were basically floating pieces of land, much like how the earth was believed to be like, when people thought it was flat. I also believe, that in itself, the Hall of Heroes is just a long building, or at least parts of it.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 30, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

I don't think it requires that much powerful magic, if a simple soul can head to the Underworld from the Fissure of Woe.

Unendingfear · Oct 30, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't think it requires that much powerful magic, if a simple soul can head to the Underworld from the Fissure of Woe.

Souls have different ways of doing things than a living creature would. Souls would be like a fourth dimension creature, compared to living beings.

draxynnic · Oct 31, 2009, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Something I found while looking through the known Underworld:

The strongest support - and in fact what could be the proof - to my theory, has in fact, been under our nose the whole time.

Reaper of the Twin Serpent Moutains

So the Realms of the Gods are, in fact, in the Rift.

However, if they are connected physically could, I suppose, be up to debate.

Actually, there is an alternate explanation:

The serpents of the Mountains are pretty much locked into the mountains - we see the odd exposed stretch, but the serpents are pretty securely immobolised. While this would be a scary punishment in itself, they're not going to make very good servants while stuck in a mountain. It's possible that the brothers themselves are elsewhere, and the Mountains themselves are simply a monument - a memorial to the duel and a reminder of what happens to those who challenge Grenth and fail.

Gmr Leon · Oct 31, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Do you see it? The map "The Underworld" and "Fetid World" have overlapping portions.

I'd like to point out, however, some very subtle differences that you appear to overlook in the supposed overlapping of the two areas.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 31, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, there is an alternate explanation:

The serpents of the Mountains are pretty much locked into the mountains - we see the odd exposed stretch, but the serpents are pretty securely immobolised. While this would be a scary punishment in itself, they're not going to make very good servants while stuck in a mountain. It's possible that the brothers themselves are elsewhere, and the Mountains themselves are simply a monument - a memorial to the duel and a reminder of what happens to those who challenge Grenth and fail.

Possible, would explain why they do not move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'd like to point out, however, some very subtle differences that you appear to overlook in the supposed overlapping of the two areas.

If you go to the Underworld map, and look past two statues into the path area of the map, you can see Fetid River as well. There are minor differences, but I am starting to think that was a mistake, as visuals confirm the connection and three minor things compared to the whole map, is quite hardly enough to prove against. Though I guess it might not be as sure of a connection as I thought.

BO6B · Jun 16, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

I hate to resurrect an old thread, but I must mention a few things.

1. The entrances to the underworld and fissure of woe were first meant to reside in much more remote locations, far away from each other. The locations were changed for convenience's sake:
1. A. The underworld entrance can be seen at the southern end of Lornar's Pass
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Temple_of_Grenth
1. B. The fissure of woe entrance is very deep in the falls
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Temple_of_Balthazar

2. The connection stated above this post seems very plausible. The fact that one of those mini map pictures is different in some parts, is that it is low resolution for one of two reasons:
2. A. To conserve VRAM (every little bit helps)
2. B. The developers improved that area at some point, and it hasn't been reflected in both maps.

3. I believe the realms in the mists are like the planets revolving around our sun. The sun being the rift & hall of heroes, and the realms are the various planets (including the mortal realm). Since these realms don't have to revolve like our planets, there could be pathways between them like a spider web. The path taken when entered through heroes ascent is a bee-line through some of these realms, on the way to the hall of heroes.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 16, 2010, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Firstly, in the lore forum as long as the post is relevant to the thread, there are no thread necromancies - as old thoughts will always be returning, and theories never die until proven right or wrong.

That said, I have heard that the two temples were the original places of access to the realms, and while it makes sense I have one thing to ask: Where was this stated/Where is your source? As far as I know and as far as I'm concerned: This is pure speculation. And even then, I don't see the relevance as it was still avatars who take us there, not portals (though that would be nice if there were portals to take us to the FoW and UW) thus it wouldn't matter where it was.

I can understand what you mean in your theory - though a better comparison would be comparing the Rift/HoH to a planet and the realms as its moons (that would also be more size-worthy). However, The issue I must protest is that there cannot be a solid, constant path like the one to the HoH should the realms be constantly moving - especially if it passes through the Underworld like the map implies and the theory state. At least, it would be impossible to have a constant path unless the rotation rate of the Rift/HoH matched the revolution rate of the UW and the world of Tyria (the world of Tyria would have to be going must faster in its revolution should it be further from the Rift if Tyria and the Realms of the Gods do indeed revolve around the Rift).

Gmr Leon · Jun 17, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

It could still work in an orbital manner, if it were to go something like this:

I didn't convey it as I had wanted due to the writing, but if there were layers to the Rift's transportation mechanism, you could have the layers rotating or going in revolutions in directions opposed to those of other worlds/layers. In that way, the living layer could be rotating/revolving in a different direction and at a different rate, while any worlds' connections to the Rift remained stationary, likewise with the divine layer and its worlds. As to the web mentioned by BO6B, that would exist within the divine layer, which in my diagram isn't shown, as it's merely a connection to the Rift. In other worlds, the web would exist within what I would call the Transportation Layer, which consists of any other existing layers such as the living and divine/afterlife.

BO6B · Jun 30, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That said, I have heard that the two temples were the original places of access to the realms, and while it makes sense I have one thing to ask: Where was this stated/Where is your source? As far as I know and as far as I'm concerned: This is pure speculation. And even then, I don't see the relevance as it was still avatars who take us there, not portals (though that would be nice if there were portals to take us to the FoW and UW) thus it wouldn't matter where it was.

I can understand what you mean in your theory - though a better comparison would be comparing the Rift/HoH to a planet and the realms as its moons (that would also be more size-worthy). However, The issue I must protest is that there cannot be a solid, constant path like the one to the HoH should the realms be constantly moving - especially if it passes through the Underworld like the map implies and the theory state. At least, it would be impossible to have a constant path unless the rotation rate of the Rift/HoH matched the revolution rate of the UW and the world of Tyria (the world of Tyria would have to be going must faster in its revolution should it be further from the Rift if Tyria and the Realms of the Gods do indeed revolve around the Rift).

My statement that the entrances to the UW and FoW were at those two previously mentioned locations, is only my speculation. It seems very plausible, because I can see no other reason why they would be there, when you could access those elite missions via the temple of ages. If you were to go to the speculated "gate to the UW", you would see that it slopes downwards and a fog envelopes you as you go further downwards, eventually stopping at the statue to Grenth. The area has the same features as the ice wastes in the UW.

I only believe these areas were planned by Arenanet during development, but through alpha or beta testing, they found that these areas were too inconvenient to enter the missions from. Their locations may have also been too cryptic for the average player to find.

Regarding both yours and Leon's replies to my "solar system" idea: I stated that the realms don't need to revolve around the rift, but they could just be "orbs" floating in the mists.